start of chat

<adam> ah, but there is no one here
<anne> Is there anyone else out there?
<adam> unfortunately, it's just you and I
<adam> You'll hear my machine announce people arriving and leaving
<anne> The topic for today's discussion is "Identity and Performance"
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<anne> Welcome, again, to the Electronic Conference on Technology and Performance
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<adam> has deb joined twice?
<deb> hello there
<anne> The topic for today's discussion is Identity and Performance
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<deb> I joined and then I rejoined.
<vcg> Hi there
<anne> Deb, can you provide a summary of Camilla Grigger's presentation/performance at the (embodied) T&P conference?
<deb> i think val should field that one...
<adam> the real test is if she can summarize it and not have it rated R?
<anne> Did Annie see it?
<anne> We will wait for Christa to log on for the Grigger's summary.
<anne> Could someone recount Joe Austin's presentation/performance?
<deb> I really enjoyed the strong identity component of Joe Austin's segment. It emphasized the search for identity through technological performance.
<anne> Deb, say more about that
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<deb> Every night all their creative performative work was "destroyed" by the subway system, but they captured in on video.
<anne> How was it destroyed?
<deb> They created their own technological performance, not to keep using buzz words, but that was the essence of their project.
<adam> is annie afriad of using her real name on chats? is there some past experience behind your lack of true identity? ;-)
<deb> The subway system developed ways to erase the graffiti so that its permanence was removed.
<Dr-A> Wasn't the point to have the work destroyed
<deb> Not initially, I don't think.
<Dr-A> test
<anne> So they were able to document the process/performance of graphiti art-marking only to have it "erased" at the end of the night by the subway "suits?"
<deb> exactly.
<deb> The external pressures forced them to find a technological solution.
<anne> But then the video tape of the graphiti-art-marking had a longevity beyond the night of its actual performance?
<vcg> The process takes on more importance as evidenced by the Austin's videos
<deb> right. and a way of reaffirming their identity as graffiti artists.
<Dr-A> Does documentation, though, add a hypertext to the grafitti performance by creating another event?
<anne> Say more VCG.
<deb> Can you clarify hypertext, Dr. A?
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<vcg> I'm not sure if it's a hypertext, because there isn't really any linking back and forth between both types of media. There must be a better way to describe it which I will think of in a minute
<adam> but filming it takes away the personal anonymity of the artists that exists (at least publically) in just tagging. Maybe that's the point, is that their performace is for themselves (and other other taggers) and not for the public
<deb> hi arthur!
<Arthur> Hi deb
<anne> But then why the need to videotape the act of making the grafitti?
<adam> arthur did you just download the chat software? or did you already have an IRC client set up?
<Arthur> Adam - I just downloaded the chat software - seem to be OK in windows 95
<vcg> Both the video and the art itself are one-way models; the viewer doesn't have the chance to guide or modify the experience as he/she would, at least in a limited way, with hypertext.
<deb> I think its for themselves but also for the public. Because the public can't see what they have created in any other way. Whereas they previously could assert their identity via actual graffiti, now they have to document it so that it can be realized.
<adam> cool! then the instructions were good enough to get you connected. that's a relief. ... 'course you're a smart fellow (being an IDT grad and all ;-)
<anne> So the technological act of recording/documenting the art-grafitti-making is a way of making their identity-making more permanent?
<deb> Yes, I believe so. For themselves and everyone else.
<adam> I'd believe so... but probably not in the long run...
<Arthur> Well, I'm just an alumnus now... The half-life of a graduate degree is 1.3 years.
<anne> How exactly was the act of making grafitti tied to the process of identity creation?
<deb> They were asserting their societal role as graffiti-makers.
<anne> Ah, so identity needs an audience to be valid?
<vcg> Well, public identity, or image does, I think
<adam> since the window of self-expression was so limited (just spray-painted art) and anonymous (by requirement... I mean, you don't want the cops to know who you are), you could create whatever identity for yourself that you wanted, free from stereo-types th
<adam> at might be associated with your appearance, ethnography, etc.
<anne> We tend to think of identity as such a personal thing....internal to the entity. but it seems like the case of the grafitti art-makers suggests otherwise.
<vcg> Isn't graffiti itself a stereotype?
<adam> however, not so free from stereotypes of being a tagger, yes
<vcg> or I guess I mean a culturally loaded form of expression
<deb> Not for everyone, but in this instance I think so. I think in order for the graffiti artists (and perhaps all artists) to create a message, of identity, it needs to be "consumable." "The medium is the message, and we're dealing with two different media here...
<adam> Arthur, what did you think of the site? did you take in any audio or video?
<anne> And we know that --following Susan Farrell's tracking of grafitti art from around the world--that the notion that grafitti is anonymous is wrong. For many grafitti makers, it is exactly NOT anonymous, but rather an opportunity to mark the public world with your "signature" or "identity" via the spray can and not the pen.
<Arthur> Not in any great detail. I've had to "earn a living" now and then.
<Arthur> This reminds me of Richard's class experiment with Daedalus. Several threads. (and I was late to class.)
<deb> And video is almost the technological equivalent of graffitti -- the equipment is relatively cheap (compared to film, hypertext etc) and available.
<anne> Interesting idea Deb, the video camera as new spray can?
<vcg> How does the existance of a site such as Farrell's Art Crimes speak to the idea of digital signature - in terms of the perpetuation of graffitti as an art form, and to the idea of authenticating ones identity on the internet, where, as the cartoon says, "no body knows you're a dog"
<adam> ah, it's in the definition of anonymity. they are anonymous to the public, but definitely not to each other.
<anne> Instead of marking the world with pressurized paint, you consume the world to remake it in the editing suite?
<deb> Yes, exactly. People are establishing their identities through what they create on video as they do via graffitti.
<vcg> It's definitely a sub-culture
<anne> Interesing notion VCG, the idea of a digital signature--that is more than the signature file in your eudora account. What would a digital signature look like?
<adam> we need more people for this, at least to play devil's advocate. we all agree with each other on everything. ;-(
<Dr-A> the idea is to both build on the previous artistic statement, like a good story, until you build a repertoire and become known for your work. Being anonymous is not what the artists wants, but not through name recognition, but by their artwork.
<deb> Its interesting to examine this in light of this chat mechanism -- are we establishing our identities here or are we exploiting the notion of anonymity (ahem, Dr.A?)
<Dr-A> Signifying is what we are.
<adam> well, it doesn't help that we're all in the same room and all know each other outside of this
<vcg> Well, I'm not sure. I was thinking of identity establishment more than an artifact which stands for a person - how do you establish a reputation?
<anne> People establish their 'styles' with the video camera probably the way that filmmakers are recognizable by shot, camera angles, stagings. How do digital designers establish their identities on line in non-chat forms?
<adam> sleep around. just kidding.
<Dr-A> It is an artifact, vcg, by its very nature. Your identity through the artifact.
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<vcg> So, your collection of posts to a specific newsgroup, say comp.java.lang, helps to establish your reputation as either an expert or a charlatan, and this collection of posts is an artifact?
<Dr-A> yep, an artifact.
<anne> Isn't any notion of identity a collection of artifacts?
<adam> yes, if nothing else, a historical artifact
<deb> As well as your bookmark collection and your list of visitied sites...
<Christa> Hi all. Sorry I'm a bit late.
<vcg> By defining your interests you define yourself
<anne> My identity as an academic, say, is definitely artefactual....a resume of papers, essays, courses taught, etc.
<adam> so it's anything that you select (including, i suppose, the words of your posts)?
<anne> Hi Christa
<vcg> Or that other people select for you using Deja News, in the case of usenet posts.
<Dr-A> Those items, deb, could help shape who you are like the things you leave behind when you die. Those things that the family must go through are bookmarks to your life. Even more literally, going through your books and finding your bookmarks or notes. Haven't you ever wondered about the person who marked up your textbook when you bought it used
<deb> I think so, adam. Even if you are assuming another "identity," on a chat forum, it is still a facet of your identity.
<anne> The question is how much of your identity *do* you select? How much of it is accumlated....much like the stuff that gathers in your car on the floor and the dashboard over time?
<Arthur> I've followed just enough of the graffiti discussion to ask if we are now discussing digitally re-mediated simulacra anonymously? Or anonymous images made as the signature of unknown artists who are now famous Internationally by digital colonization.
<Dr-A> what you put on the dashboard is what you select and accumulation speaks to who you are.
<adam> I always thought, "hey, they probably buy used too."
<Dr-A> Oh, Arthur, you and the colonies again?
<deb> But what about all the crap that collects on your car floor? Is that the equivalent of your netscape log -- you know, all the sites you went to that didn't have what your were looking for?
<anne> Say more arthur.
<Arthur> I suspect that this experiment has gone recursive...
<Arthur> Too many IDT folk.
<Dr-A> How important is disappearnce to the role of graffiti?
<anne> If you threw a party and nobody came except your friends that you could always count on, would it still be a party?
<adam> I wish I could push a button and clean the floorboard of my car (or hell, limit the amount of litter... hmm)
<Arthur> The obliteration of graffiti is the symbolic invocation of virtual death.
<vcg> I find this form of conversation frustrating, like an orchestra where each member has her own metronome. It's hard to keep the rhythm of the conversation constant.
<Dr-A> Good question anne. Is the party for the others than exist outside your realm?
<vcg> I didn't mean to sound negative - I guess it takes some getting used to. help_us :No such nick/channel
<Arthur> One must learn syncopation of digital conversation(s). ? :Unknown command commands :Unknown command help_us :No such nick/channel
<deb> Dr. A I think disappearance is important to the technologically remediated form of graffiti -- ie video. That might have never existed were it not for the disappearance factor.
<Christa> Val - I agree about it being a bit frustrating. Try logging on 20 minutes late.
<Dr-A> The ability to interrupt is gone, thus allowing everyone to "speak." Changes the A-type thing radically.
<adam> Arthur, or learn to loathe it
<deb> Adam -- can we keep a log of this conversation?
<adam> we are doing that
<vcg> Well, anyway, I guess you just have to multi-task, write, think, and read at the same time.
<anne> In the case of grafitti, disappearance is part of the medium. Take Keith Haring for example. An entire period of his art making was marking the NY subway spaces with his "futuristic primitive" line drawings.....He was very guerilla about it....and of course, his friends "caught" him on camera making his grafitti. Now his work is well known an
<adam> have been
<deb> cool
<Arthur> The trick is to have an open Word file filled with pithy comments - (use cut & paste).
<adam> (ah but I have the special power, if anyone ticks me off in this conversation, I'll just turn on the voice speaking and drive everyone crazy)
<Christa> Oh how I've missed *Arthurisms* :-)
<deb> that's a good point, anne -- everyone recognizes that particular style as Keith Haring...
<vcg> That's true - not to mention the socio-political meaning of Haring's style which
<anne> What do you all think of Judith Butler's formulation that says *all identity is performance?"
<deb> And then there's the issue of the video/photography artist. Like Annie Leibowitz's photographs of Haring in the subway -- was that establishing her identity or Haring's?
<anne> Good question Deb.
<Dr-A> Guerilla itself is a form-a st yle-like guerilla theatre. It has its own rules, audience, expectations (one of which is the ability to obstruct).
<vcg> Cut myself off but what I meant was that it's easy to make a statement by buying a $2.00 magnet in addition to or instead of being politically active.
<deb> do you buy that magnet for your own pleasure or to put it on your fridge for everyone to see?
<anne> Lets talk about the issue of identity and consumption....i.e., buying the $2.00 magnet as a way of marking one's identity as "politicallly" aware, if not active?
<vcg> It depends. If you were buying it for yourself why not buy Keith Haring boxer shorts?
<deb> Good point!
<Christa> When I buy a magnet, it's to hang something.
<Arthur> Thanks, Christa.
<deb> interesting...
<anne> Cutting to the chase, once again.
<deb> we need a Christa bot everyday!
<Christa> Your welcome Arthur.
<Arthur> What's also confusing, is to have conversations with office folks while following this Chat...
<anne> What about the notion of all identity as performance? Butler says that we perform ourselves everyday.....by what we wear, i.e., our "style," by what we consume, "we are what we eat!" by what we do, and how we hold our bodies....
<Dr-A> Often the refrigerator is like a screen - a subway car - that is now commercialized by magnets for us to say who we are (from our notes, lists, to the actual magnet).
<deb> That's interesting, Anne -- I would be inclined to agree with Butler.
<Arthur> Indeed, we are what we post.
<vcg> People want to buy souvenirs to distill the experience of something which doesn't have any natural tangible artifact attached to it - documentation of an experience - why do people light candles in church or even have portraits of their families?
<anne> In the Butler view, the body is a staging area......and a prop for identity artefacts.
<Dr-A> I think that is stretching performance to mean "the everything." It is like saying all the world can be understood in terms of economics or politics. The person is more than identity (or synomym of performance).
<deb> However, I wouldn't necessarily define myself by the ugly sweatshirt and jeans I put on in the evenings. I have my private clothes and public clothes, just as, I guess, we have a private and public identity.
<anne> Dr-A, that's exactly the latest thrust of performance studies....although I don't know Butler's relation to it....that performance is a "paradigm" of sorts to understand some basic constructs such as "identity," "self," etc.
<vcg> So, to get back to the magent, or postcard thing, it's really interesting the way art has become such a commodity - I don't mean original art, but "blockbuster" shows at the Met and all of the little datebooks/shopping bags/postcards that people like to buy to try to preserve the experience, or to bring it to a maneagable level, or to serve as a
<deb> Walter Benjamin again?
<anne> IF not Benjamin, then certainly capitalism colonizing the very stuff of consciousness..i.e., memories as commodities, or rather, commodities mark the memories....make the memories more "real than real." Yep, Bladerunner all over again.
<deb> Is how you experience art (i.e via a book of art or an museum) a facet of your identity -- ecomonic and social?
<Dr-A> Paradigms as a thought may need to be reconsidered. To say that "this explains...." is very reductionist at a time we are discovering that things are enormously complex and interwoven. I think that the thrust of theory may move to be more inclusive of other elements than the scientific paradigm.
<deb> Anne, your comment makes me think of people who spend more time at children's birthday parties taking pictures than they do actually enjoying the children and the party...
<Arthur> We need to define ourselves by more that the artifacts of our appropriation. We _must_ be more than the sum of the parts. Otherwise, we should start tattooing "This Space for Rent" on the butts of all new born children... "Our children - Our bookmarks."
<deb> that's interesting.
<Christa> I think art is a feeling and if you can get a bit of the same feeling looking at a Monet postcard as you do a painting, then more power to you.
<anne> And the people who spend more time/effort on figuring out how to "consume" or buy the art artefact than in contemplating its significance.
<adam> I though its significance was directly related to the number of people trying to consume or buy it (call me circulcar boy)
<vcg> Debbi's question is interesting, though probably one that causes people some discomfort. I would say, yes. Think of abstract art.
<anne> Arthur, that's wonderful. In fact, I would suggest that this stage of capitalism has done *exactly* that....tatooed the butts of our children with this "space to rent" in the forms of "luvs" "huggies," pampers, etc. all color coded by gender and class.
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<Dr-A> vcg: interesting about commercialization of the big stuff. however, the exciting theatre pieces are happening in small garage type settings in LA, small non-conformist houses in major cities, and this may reflect a reconsideration of how we have structured the way we do things and think about things. I sincerely believe that the *big, spectacu
<Arthur> Yes, human beings as the Ultimate consumer item
<deb> ANd that brings us back to identity -- if we like abstract art, is that a reflection of our identity or of the artists? Or both?
<vcg> But art also always has been, historically, a way for people, or the church, to display wealth as well as a purely aesthetic experience.
<anne> Good point VCG about art always being about wealth as well as aesthetics.
<vcg> Do you mean to say that my B.A. is finally being put to use?
<anne> A confession from me...when I buy an art magnet I do want to possess something bout the art piece.
<Dr-A> But vcg, art has also been a critical way for people to express other things - like political statements, counter views to the *big* Thus, graffiti art is important in its own realm of caring on the traditional counterpoint on our transportation system. We are a country of transportation - goods, people, information, etc.
<vcg> Definitely.
<Christa> Anne, say a couple of hail mary's and you'll be forgiven.
<Dr-A> Of course, it is beauty brought home and placed on the shrine of food.
<adam> AMY, do a unix talk to me on bastille
<Dr-A> Adam, is this something we should really be observing????
<vcg> It has, but I was just saying that we can't ignore the "low" aspects of art.
<Dr-A> Wait a minute - what do you mean by "low?"
<adam> sure, i have no out of channel communication with the client I'm using
<deb> I agree. If you have wealth and status to go see the Louvre, why should you be more "cultural" than one who has to look at the Mona Lisa in a book?
<anne> I don't really want to be forgiven.....a heretical statement from a lapsed catholic. more to the point, is that I want to own something that reminds me of something that moved me. I don't think the magnet moves me....it provokes the memory of being moved/disturbed/inspired--whatever the impact of the art was at my moment of receiving it.
<Dr-A> So, Anne, why do you wish to keep the memory?
<deb> An identity issue?
<vcg> I mean the intersection between art and money, which many people think of as completely unrelated. or social status. the idea that art is created for a purpose other than to provide an aesthetic experience to the viewer.
<Dr-A> So, explain what you mean by "high" art and "low" art.
<deb> vcg what about the artist's message? Can you get the message from a museum as well as from a postcard, or vice versa?
<Christa> Anne, that's exactly what I meant when I said that art is about feeling. Nothing wrong with a little reminder this day and age (e.g. the magnet).
<adam> it may be like hearing a song over AM vs FM. It's still the same song, but it may not have the same effect on you.
<deb> Good analogy, adam.
<anne> I want to keep the memory prompt because my memory banks are loaded to the max. too much noise on a daily basis coming through all channels--email, phone, tv, mail, to-do lists.....i forget more and more every day of the stuff i don't want to forget that is replace by stuff that i don't want to know but i can't filter it out....hence the memory
<deb> Or hearing it live in concert and hearing it on a cd...
<vcg> I meant the "low" aspects of "high" art, but high art is traditionally defined as pieces from the canon of western art, and low art is repurposed. Simplistic explanation, obviously, and incomplete. Maybe high art is art for arts sake
<adam> anne, microsoft is working on a solution to that.
<adam> ;-)
<Arthur> Perhaps we need artifacts because we live in a society that defines immortality in terms of collective memory. We have lost a spiritual definition of afterlife and have found a material Disney version.
<vcg> The magnet is a thumbnail image
<vcg> Or Hallmark
<deb> Or Mickey Mouse superimposed on the Grand Canyon...
<vcg> or on Mount Rushmore
<Arthur> Virtual Heaven...
<Dr-A> Oh, vcg, that point of view assumes a very paternal stance that has roots in the colonialization of countries "deemed" primitive. Thus, the terms primitive art. That is an idea that must die with the end of this century because the cannon was shot a long time ago.
<deb> I think that's Goofy, on Mount Rushmore..
<Christa> VCG - speaking of Hallmark...I spent $30 on Mother's Day cards this year.
<vcg> I didn't say that it was my point of view, just that that was the traditional definition.
<anne> Art is certainly about feeling, and experience, and disruption, and conversation, and exchange and commodification, and canonization, and values, and immortality, and ?
<deb> Identity.
<Arthur> Perhaps, identity, like meaning, is negotiated. The interplay between a subjective experience and an ostensibly objective reality.
<anne> Good point arthur.
<Christa> Arthur - huh? ;-)
<Dr-A> Arthur: don't all society's define immortality from the collective memory.
<anne> Identity is a negotiated performance then. Where does technology come in?
<Dr-A> Arthur, with whom is the person negotiating?
<Arthur> Not ours... If you only pray and live a good life - Your Gone.
<Arthur> One negotiates with the Keeper of the Fifteen Minute Whorholian Memoria.
<vcg> Negotiating with Elvis
<anne> Not person to person negotiation, but rather negotiating with the stock of available images, artefacts, channels of circulation....
<Dr-A> One must answer the question, anne, with whom is a person negotiating? Oneself, the other, the community, the culture???
<deb> All of the above, but mostly oneself, I would think.
<Dr-A> The next question must then be, "why do people negotiate and for what reason?"
<vcg> Culture on many different levels - family, peers, colleagues...
<Arthur> Do we negotiate with the Eternal Essense of the Universe?
<anne> We negotiate with the reality that always precedes us ... in terms of identities on display and identity artefacts available for our adoption/consumption/display..... that's the problem with reality, its always been happening before you arrived on the scene.
<Dr-A> The problem with the idea of negotiation is that the person is seen in conflict. Negotiation comes as a result of conflict.
<deb> There is a conflict... between "objective" reality and what the person sees as reality.
<anne> Negotiation can also mean finding a place for oneself in a space....like negotiating an obstacle course.
<Dr-A> But, anne, this always assumes conflict. Why?
<anne> I don't think negotiation always assumes conflict.
<Dr-A> Also, this conflict is a linear way of thinking. People, life , etc. is much, much more than that. I just don't buy this simplistic negotiation thing.
<anne> But I do think it is a process of creation....of a new space, of a new possibility, of a new understanding, of a new (ala Arthur's idea) identity.
<deb> We have to learn to negotiate our environment as cyborgs. That brings us back to the technological aspects of our individual performances of identity.
<anne> Technology is something we actively negotiate, no?
<Christa> I think someone needs to define negotiation.
<vcg> Not always - you negotiate it when using an atm machine, for example
<deb> To a point. After a while things become "indispensable" and we are forced to actively negotiate in the absence of technology.
<Arthur> Whew! Global Chat & the Theology of the Ontology of Art. Too much! It's been fun, but I have a non-virtual meeting to preview a non-artistic video. (I'll tune in for more negotiation tomorrow...) Tah-Tah For Now.
<Dr-A> Yes, life is a process, that I can agree. But negotiation might only be a tiny part of what is actually happening and by focusing on negotiation, I feel, that we are focusing on the negative. Remember, this has been a century of enormous conflict that plays out in our ways of structuring our theories. I am so hopeful that the next ten years w
<adam> great! thanks for stopping by arthur
<deb> bye Arthur -- don't be a stranger, as my grandmother would say.
<Arthur> OK.
<adam> see you tomorrow, same bat time, same bat channel
*** Signoff: Arthur (Leaving)
<Dr-A> No, anne, I don't that we actively negotiate as our only activity.
<Christa> Let's put some of that stuff online, Dr. A
<deb> What do you suggest, Annie, that we do if we don't negotiate constantly?
<vcg> Well, Annie is always negotiating, as we all know.
<anne> I'm not suggesting that negotiating is are only activity....I'm suggesting that it is interesting to think of identity not as a *thing* but as a *process* of which "negotiation" may be an interesting action-term.
<adam> I think annie's idea of negotiation can be different from some of ours ;-)
<deb> Push vs. pull technology?
<Dr-A> I don't think that we spend our time negotiating, but rather do a variety of things. This negotiation thing comes from a belief system based on conflict, negativity, stuggle - the very things that have made this century so very bloody.
<anne> You're wrong.
<vcg> Stuggle?
<Dr-A> Bosnia, Hilter, hate crimes, civil rights
<adam> stupid struggle
<anne> When you stop struggling? you are dead.
<deb> yes, I agree.
<Christa> Or in a drunken stupor.
<deb> That's when you lose the struggle. Or when you win?
<anne> What's the process word that would work for you Dr. A?
<Dr-A> You are not dead. There are very kinds of struggle, Anne, with this century one of enormous bloody struggle almost unparalleled in history.
<adam> no someone didn't annie!
<Dr-A> therapy?
<Christa> I know you are, but what am I?
<vcg> It depends how you look at it. Some things aren't worth struggling over. For example, your age. No matter how many facelifts you get you will still end up dead in the end.
<anne> Yea, yea, I've heard enough about our century of "bloody" struggles....nobody knows the trouble I/you've/they've seen.
<adam> who was that directed at vcg?
<Dr-A> there are also some pleasures in life or don't they count for much?
<anne> Let's get back to the topic of identity/performance/technology, eh?
<Christa> That's just the real world interupting us faithful to the chat.
<vcg> You adam - of course ; ) you're over the hill
<Christa> Anne, you've been hanging around Sandra too much, eh?
<anne> Aging.....now there is an interesting confluence of identity, performance and technology.
<Christa> I mean that in a Canadian sort of way.
<Dr-A> One of the things that technology can do is remove the most obvious forms of identity from other technologies. Only the telegraph removed as much as the computer can.
<anne> Say more, Dr. A.
<vcg> I think that the aging thing is different for women anyway, because of the emphasis on a youth-centric ideal of physical beauty - interesting in a tangental sort of way if you think of the body as performance, esp. w/r to the outward trappings.
<Dr-A> The telegraph removed the personalization of the written letter or the visit. People could communicate via signals transmitted across space. The computer can transmit signals across space too in the form of text (like the telegraph). We can sit here in a chat room talking away without the site or visit. Email, to me, is like an abbreviated l
<anne> How do I act my age? I dress in an appropriate "style"--ie. no babydoll dresses for me anymore. I act a certain age....no drinking tequila until 4:00 am like I use to do in grad school.....I try to perform the age that I am, but really don't have any clue what that means.
<adam> it's the performance over time. some people are known for it (like dick clark). interestingly the performance seems to be the lack of aging.
<adam> ok, you're right, I've noticed that your taquilla parties for IDT only last until 3 ;-)
<vcg> It's also circumstantial - there are a lot of 24 year old people who could be fify, and the other way around.
<Dr-A> Yes, vcg, but after a certain age you do begin to feel like some things simply don't matter. In some ways, though, I think, women who are very secure really don't care (the idea that one can wear purple everywhere). Age appropriate behavior, I think, is more about training our children.
<anne> I blew the age performance thing anyway....If I wanted to look younger, I should have married a much *older* man, not a much *younger* man like my wonderful, but *youthful* husband David.
<Dr-A> So, anne, age is determined by the person on your arm?
<deb> Because youth and wealth are valued in our society, people, especially women, are not seen as doing their "job" unless they spend tons of money to look young and beautiful. A conspiracy to get the money and power away from women?
<vcg> you feel that was but a lot of women don't - why else would Lancome be able to charge 50 dollars for a pot of grease and still stay in business?
<anne> And by the people that one admits to one's gradutate program--hypothetically speaking.....hang out with young people and you'll look old....therefore....
<deb> I agree with you, Val. If you don't buy that pot of grease, your skin will wrinkle up and peel off overnight!
<Dr-A> touche.
<Dr-A> Is that Crisco, deb?
<deb> And I can't really criticize anyone, because I'm the biggest marketing sucker ever! Don't look in my bathroom closet!
<vcg> No, lard
<adam> if it were a pot of grease that keeps you young, the lines at the Varsity would be huge.
<Christa> Chili dogs for everyone.
<vcg> Fried Pie
<deb> Imagine... the Varsity as a new beauty treatment. They need to redo their advertising!
<Dr-A> a website in the making????
<deb> I hate to ask, but what's fried pie?
<anne> I for one am ready for the alpha-hydroxide miracle cream now on sale at macy's.
<anne> Speaking of cheese....
<deb> this conversation?>
<anne> Anyone care to summarize the pithy insights generated by this chat session?
<deb> Hmmm, identity, performance, technology, and fried pie?
<adam> just the pithy ones? or all of them?
<vcg> don't forget negotiation
<deb> You can negotiate the varsity parking lot...
<anne> Identity is a negotiation process, regardless of what Dr. A thinks. Technology is one more thing to negotiate, or tool of negotiation.
<deb> I agree Anne.
<Christa> I've realized some things about myself just from doing this chat thing. For one thing, I can't conversationalize as well as I can in the real world. I suppose it just takes some practice. By day three, I'll be all over it.
<deb> doesn't the I in FLIECO stand for identity?
<anne> It does take some getting use to. But its nice to both have stream of collective consciousness AND a record of comments by people.
<Christa> I can't believe you went there debbie.
<deb> sorry
<vcg> I feel more comfortable talking about theory in this forum. If I say something stupid a: no one has to reply and b: I can blame it on my poor typing skills.
<deb> You haven't said one stupid thing Val! Well, maybe the lard comment, but otherwise...hahaha
<adam> or slow typing skills. if you don't have much to say on a topic, just wait 10 seconds and we'll move on to another.
<anne> In fact, the issues we've been talking about count as "high" theory in cultural studies these days. There is no more debated, contested scene than the scene of "identity" theory.....
<deb> I wouldn't have been able to have this conversation a year ago. Go IDT!
<anne> Are we ready with tomorrow's "live" multimedia sessions?
<adam> yeah, we've got to figure out a way to get others in here.
<deb> Yes -- they are up and ready to go! We're just trying to "negotiate" some real audio issues.
<vcg> Oh, I didn't mean that I thought the issues were stupid, I meant that a lot of the time I don't think of myself as a theoretical thinker and I'm more comfortable having this buffer than having a conversation about it.
<Christa> I'll be joining in from work so I'll get my office mates online - hopefully.
<deb> I agree with that Val.
<anne> I think we should run this webcast again in the fall when everyone is back in session. Matt and Terry would have been interested in the topic, as I'm sure other people would have been at other places...especially the participants whose work we've remediated.
<deb> Definitely.
<vcg> I agree.
<Dr-A> good show
<deb> I'm logging off to figure out tomorrow's performative technological presentation. Bye now!
<vcg> good bye
<Christa> Thanks for the laughs.
<anne> I'm hungry, so I'm out of here.